Discussion:
American Airlines - Last one standing
(too old to reply)
sechumlib
2005-09-20 01:49:34 UTC
Permalink
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Well, that's lovely for a place that has enough scheduled bus service to
handle it. Most parts of the US don't. My part certainly doesn't.

Why don't you give up trying to reform us?
JL Grasso
2005-09-20 01:55:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Graham
Obviously.

Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!

Jerry
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?

Graham
JL Grasso
2005-09-20 02:24:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 03:04:36 +0100, Pooh Bear
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
It's more than high enough to know a post editing, uninformed,
self-absorbed scum swallowing netkkkop when I see one.

Your knowledge of aviation is still quite marginal, BTW.

Jerry
mrtravel
2005-09-20 02:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Neither does most of the UK ! London's provision is probably overall little
different to that of NY.

We get by though

Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Neither does most of the UK ! London's provision is probably overall little
different to that of NY.
We get by though
Have you been to New York City? Have you been to New York state, all of the
way to upstate New York? In case you didn't know, they are nothing alike,
in any way, shape or form.

It would not get by in Upstate New York, or much else, outside of New York
City.

I hate being abusive, but I'm getting really close.
--
Jim in NC
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Neither does most of the UK ! London's provision is probably overall
little
Post by Pooh Bear
different to that of NY.
We get by though
Have you been to New York City? Have you been to New York state, all of the
way to upstate New York? In case you didn't know, they are nothing alike,
in any way, shape or form.
It would not get by in Upstate New York, or much else, outside of New York
City.
I hate being abusive, but I'm getting really close.
I doubt that NYC is much different to London in many ways.

What was your point ? Did you have one ?

Graham.
TOliver
2005-09-20 05:32:24 UTC
Permalink
"Pooh Bear" wrote...
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Morgans
I hate being abusive, but I'm getting really close.
I doubt that NYC is much different to London in many ways.
What was your point ? Did you have one ?
His point was your seeming lack of comprehension of the relative vastness
and the scattered and thin population of much of the US. Our cities
"sprawl" along with the suburbs, public transit is almost unknown in cities
of less than 100,000, commercial intercity bus service has declined to
almost railroad type infrequency and few destinations, and all of the "good"
suggestions you make seem almost laughable in the face of the realities with
which most of us live. IIRC, New Mexico, with 1.5 million, is about the
size of the Scuppered H'aisles. Texas, with a lot more people, well over
20,000,000, covers a chunk of Earth surface certainly as large as Western
Europe, but has vast "empties" and counties larger than Belgium with
populations ranging from less than 1,000 to 4-5,000 or so. The largest
county, Brewster, has no land line telephone service, but its own "coop"
cellular carrier, with every school kid having his/her own telephone provide
free (along with a few minutes of free time to call home for emergencies).
Towers were much cheaper than new hard wiring. In that part of the state,
school bus rides of more than 50 miles each way are common.

To bring this back to air travel, I routinely pay a good bit more to fly via
"commuter a/c", in this case SAAB-340s, to a major airportt because the
local airport is 15 miles but only 20 minutes. Two contract carriers for
major airlines fly in and out a half dozen times daily, first departure at
6AM, last arrival about 10PM. Parking is free and never more than 200 yards
from the terminal. For rail service, I'd have to drive 30 miles to catch a
generally behind schedule train, one heading North, another South most days.
Drive to DFW? I would, but a few days of parking and the gas to drive costs
more than my air ticket to and from ACT, not counting the traffic....

We do have a sidewalk in front of my suburb's City Hall, sort of a sample or
specimen I guess. There are pretty good sidewalks at the airport, smooth
enough to take the jiggle out of my rollaboard. Most of the better beer
joints, dance halls, roadhouses and saloons have taken to paving their
parking lots, good washed pea gravel having grown expensive, and oyster
shell unobtainable except for fish camps on the coast.

With the move to short sleeve shirts, most of the locals have started using
napkins, and spittoons are pretty rare, since empty coffee cans are free and
disposable (and not too messy if you save the plastic lids).

TMO
nobody
2005-09-20 07:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by TOliver
His point was your seeming lack of comprehension of the relative vastness
and the scattered and thin population of much of the US.
But this is a PROBLEM which the USA refuses to acknowledge and tackle.
And it is one reasons why you are the biggest per capital polluter,
biggest per capita user of energy etc.


So the high fuel prices are to a large extent due to the USA's
unwillingness to lower energy consumption through more energy efficient
smaller cars, better mass transit systems etc. It is a philosophy
problem. the USA refuses to consider those, thinking that the right to
drive a personnal Hummer is entrenched in the USA constitution.

But as a result of such lifestyle choices, you cannot implement more
rational mass transit and public school busing and need to spend
enourmous amounts of money building highways.

City planners should REFUSE to cater to cars and keep on designing
cities that are friendly to mass transit and walking.
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 08:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by TOliver
His point was your seeming lack of comprehension of the relative vastness
and the scattered and thin population of much of the US.
But this is a PROBLEM which the USA refuses to acknowledge and tackle.
And it is one reasons why you are the biggest per capital polluter,
biggest per capita user of energy etc.
So the high fuel prices are to a large extent due to the USA's
unwillingness to lower energy consumption through more energy efficient
smaller cars, better mass transit systems etc. It is a philosophy
problem. the USA refuses to consider those, thinking that the right to
drive a personnal Hummer is entrenched in the USA constitution.
But as a result of such lifestyle choices, you cannot implement more
rational mass transit and public school busing and need to spend
enourmous amounts of money building highways.
In an urban environment it should be entirely possible to live off of
mass transit (plus walking) much of the time. I do it in a city of a
million, and in general the higher population (and more important,
higher density) the more feasible this becomes.

However, it doesn't work like that in a rural environment unless
everybody needs to come and go at the same time. Who would take a bus
between small towns if you need to wait up to 2 hours for the bus, and
then walk 30 minutes on each end of the trip when it would only take 30
minutes to drive door-to-door?

It's more cost effective to run on-demand vehicles (private cars) then
mass transit if the capacity is so low that it's not cost effective to
run mass transit frequently enough to be useful.

Cars which were more energy efficient will ultimately become the
solution, but alas, it's not the "American Way"
Post by nobody
City planners should REFUSE to cater to cars and keep on designing
cities that are friendly to mass transit and walking.
Indeed. I'd love to see a few cities try it and see how it goes, but
unfortunately it's easier said then done.
--
Going to war over religion is fighting to see who's got the
better imaginary friend.
George Patterson
2005-09-20 15:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
City planners should REFUSE to cater to cars and keep on designing
cities that are friendly to mass transit and walking.
When a town or small city does that, retail business moves out to malls on the
perimeter so that their customers can reach them. The downtown areas then tend
to die.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Nor does most of the UK. Didn't they kill a lot of rural & village
service a few years ago?
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 04:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Nor does most of the UK. Didn't they kill a lot of rural & village
service a few years ago?
Certainly the rail system has been significantly rationalized.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Nor does most of the UK. Didn't they kill a lot of rural & village
service a few years ago?
Certainly the rail system has been significantly rationalized.
You're likely thinking of the 'Beeching Cuts'.

Many 'branch lines' were axed in an atempt to cut costs. In the event it
cut few costs and reduced the income base !

Very foolish.

Graham
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 13:47:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
Certainly the rail system has been significantly rationalized.
You're likely thinking of the 'Beeching Cuts'.
Many 'branch lines' were axed in an atempt to cut costs. In the event it
cut few costs and reduced the income base !
Those were the start, certainly. But it appears the current government is
encouraging even more.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Nor does most of the UK. Didn't they kill a lot of rural & village
service a few years ago?
More like many decades ago actually if you mean the destruction of rural
rail services.

Rural dwellers are often SUV drivers these days so they can transport their
loved ones in presumed security !

Graham
Alice, SWMBO
2005-09-20 02:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Public transport in this country can't even rise to the job of taking adults
to work.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:48:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alice, SWMBO
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about
the
Post by Pooh Bear
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport
can
Post by Pooh Bear
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Public transport in this country can't even rise to the job of taking adults
to work.
It sounds like you have a fundamental problem there !

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
It sounds like you have a fundamental problem there !
Not if we don't shift to year-round DST, we don't.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
It sounds like you have a fundamental problem there !
Not if we don't shift to year-round DST, we don't.
I thought there was a problem with available daylight hours during winter
regardless of the whether DST is used or not !

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
I thought there was a problem with available daylight hours during winter
regardless of the whether DST is used or not !
No. Once we get off of DST, the kids are leaving for school in half light or
better and getting home before sundown. That's in the area near NYC. School gets
out well before adults get off work, so adults are getting home after dark. Kids
who engage in after school activities beyond about 4:30 PM have to deal with
darkness near the solstice. Typical schoolkids don't around here.

The further north you go, the less daylight there is. Perhaps upstate NY has a
problem, but the vast majority of the U.S. does not.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
nobody
2005-09-20 06:58:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
I thought there was a problem with available daylight hours during winter
regardless of the whether DST is used or not !
The decision maker lives in Texas, in the south. Perhaps down there, the
days are long enough in winter to make a difference, and he isn't smart
enough to realise that in northern states there are fare fewer daylight hours.
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Oh, yeah, I "almost" forgot about public transport.

Did you mean the taxi cabs from the next county over, or *the one* handicap
12 passenger lift van, that a guy drives 15 or 20 hours a week, that the
local government (social services) supplies, to take elderly and handicapp
persons to the doctor and grocery store. (on demand calls) I think we could
make that work for our 1600 student high school, 4 elementary, and three
middle schools.

Not.

My IQ must be really low, too.
--
Jim in NC
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morgans
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about
the
Post by Pooh Bear
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport
can
Post by Pooh Bear
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Oh, yeah, I "almost" forgot about public transport.
Did you mean the taxi cabs from the next county over, or *the one* handicap
12 passenger lift van, that a guy drives 15 or 20 hours a week, that the
local government (social services) supplies, to take elderly and handicapp
persons to the doctor and grocery store. (on demand calls) I think we could
make that work for our 1600 student high school, 4 elementary, and three
middle schools.
Not.
My IQ must be really low, too.
Don't you have *Bus Companies* in your country ?

Graham
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Only if there is public transport that covers the desired ride in a
reasonable manner.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Only if there is public transport that covers the desired ride in a
reasonable manner.
Perfectly reasonable comment.

Where I lived, public transport had plenty enough spare capacity to easily absorb
the required number of school 'seats'.

If you're out in the wilds then I'm sure that special services will need to be laid
on.

Graahm
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:44:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
If you're out in the wilds then I'm sure that special services will need to be laid
on.
That's most of the U.S.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 01:56:20 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
How deep would you recommend that they stack the students? I'm
assuming you'd agree that putting the highschool kids on the bottom
layer would help stabilize the pile...
Ahhh.... someone 'kinda' gave an answer !

You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?

Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.

They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !

Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.

Graham
mrtravel
2005-09-20 02:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
Graham
Do these cost the same as the smaller buses?
Are they as safe?
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
Graham
Do these cost the same as the smaller buses?
Are they as safe?
I honestly don't know the cost of such buses. Double decker buses are more common
in Europe and countries that were formerly run by Britain.

You'll find double deckers in Mumbai ( Bombay ) for example.

The largest double deckers I've travelled on were in Hong Kong ( also previously
British ) . They could carry up to 130 seated pasengers.

They have been shown to be very safe.

Graham
Alice, SWMBO
2005-09-20 03:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
It's not the size of the bus that's the issue. It's the extensive routes
that must be run. If you put all the kids on one bus going to three
different destinations and all the schools start at the same time, you still
have to start before the crack of dawn in order to pick up all the kids and
make three dropoffs, being sure to get the last third to their school on
time....which, remember, starts at the same time as the first school. And
then reverse the process in the afternoon. Don't forget that it can take
10-15 minutes at each school just to get the buses loaded. Don't you want
to be in that first group? Now *everyone* has a very long day. If you put
them all on the same bus and still stagger the start times to account for
the extra distances between schools, you'll have the first group spending a
whole lot of extra time on that bus waiting for the other two groups to
finish, both in the morning and afternoon.

Since you seem to have all the answers, I am just shocked that your services
haven't been demanded as a visiting urban planner.
JL Grasso
2005-09-20 03:20:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:12:09 -0700, "Alice, SWMBO"
Post by Alice, SWMBO
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw.
You
Post by Pooh Bear
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
It's not the size of the bus that's the issue. It's the extensive routes
that must be run. If you put all the kids on one bus going to three
different destinations and all the schools start at the same time, you still
have to start before the crack of dawn in order to pick up all the kids and
make three dropoffs, being sure to get the last third to their school on
time....which, remember, starts at the same time as the first school. And
then reverse the process in the afternoon. Don't forget that it can take
10-15 minutes at each school just to get the buses loaded. Don't you want
to be in that first group? Now *everyone* has a very long day. If you put
them all on the same bus and still stagger the start times to account for
the extra distances between schools, you'll have the first group spending a
whole lot of extra time on that bus waiting for the other two groups to
finish, both in the morning and afternoon.
Since you seem to have all the answers, I am just shocked that your services
haven't been demanded as a visiting urban planner.
Or a paper weight.

Jerry
sechumlib
2005-09-20 12:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
The last double decker bus used in regular service in the US ran in NY
City in about 1945.

Where are we supposed to get buses like that? From England, where they
have to be shipped overseas and board people on the wrong side anyway?

And you're suggesting that school districts should pay the freight for
HUGE, ungainly buses rather than educating kids?

Get real.
Keith W
2005-09-20 14:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by sechumlib
Post by Pooh Bear
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
The last double decker bus used in regular service in the US ran in NY
City in about 1945.
You mean apart from the ones running around full of tourists right now.

http://www.buynewyorktours.com/tours/all_loops_tour_double_decker_nyc_grayline.html

Keith



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sechumlib
2005-09-20 15:00:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith W
Post by sechumlib
The last double decker bus used in regular service in the US ran in NY
City in about 1945.
You mean apart from the ones running around full of tourists right now.
That's why I said "in regular service".
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 01:58:00 UTC
Permalink
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's a little matter of wanting to spend school system money on
EDUCATION rather than on enough buses to pick up EVERY student at the
same time.
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.

Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 02:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's a little matter of wanting to spend school system money on
EDUCATION rather than on enough buses to pick up EVERY student at the
same time.
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.
Because regardless of the size of the bus, it's still more efficient to
have the buses running for 3 hours a day rather then having three times
the possible capacity and have each bus run for only 1 hour a day.
--
Nobody ever lost money underestimating the human intelligence.
-- P.T.Barnum
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's a little matter of wanting to spend school system money on
EDUCATION rather than on enough buses to pick up EVERY student at the
same time.
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.
Because regardless of the size of the bus, it's still more efficient to
have the buses running for 3 hours a day rather then having three times
the possible capacity and have each bus run for only 1 hour a day.
Yes, I can see the logic of that.

It's counter to the possibilty of ensuring all the kids travel within daylight hours
however.

Graham
Jim Ley
2005-09-20 09:12:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.
Because regardless of the size of the bus, it's still more efficient to
have the buses running for 3 hours a day rather then having three times
the possible capacity and have each bus run for only 1 hour a day.
Er, no, you have to pay a driver for 3 hours rather than 1, you have
to use perhaps up 3 times as much fuel, depending on relative fuel
efficiencies.

It's definately not more efficient on the bus, other than an
efficiency measure dealt with purely in terms of the number of hours
the bus is in use.

Jim.
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 01:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Mixing ages is not the issue. The issue is that in the US, schools are required
to use school buses, unlike in other countries, where standard buses are
frequently used. This means that said buses must be purchased by said school
districts, or leased from a company that purchases them.

Starting all schools at the same time would require 3 times as many buses, and
three times the cost of running those buses.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Not at all. You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of utilization and
what it costs to run buses for just an hour in the morning and an hour in the
afternoon.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Mixing ages is not the issue. The issue is that in the US, schools are required
to use school buses, unlike in other countries, where standard buses are
frequently used. This means that said buses must be purchased by said school
districts, or leased from a company that purchases them.
Starting all schools at the same time would require 3 times as many buses, and
three times the cost of running those buses.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Not at all. You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of utilization and
what it costs to run buses for just an hour in the morning and an hour in the
afternoon.
S'ok !

You have at last out of all the posters here *finally* explained what it's about !
Essentially - limited resources. Thank you.

I simply suggest larger buses. You'll see from another post of mine that it's
possible for buses to cary 130 pax. It's up to you to decide if you want to use
them.

Graham
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 02:00:32 UTC
Permalink
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Student fares are offered on mass transit systems in major cities.

However, unlike in the UK and other countries, the low population density and
associated lack of mass transit in most of the US precludes the use of commuter
buses and standard commuter routes for school transportation.

Hence the requirement for dedicated school buses.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Student fares are offered on mass transit systems in major cities.
However, unlike in the UK and other countries, the low population density and
associated lack of mass transit in most of the US precludes the use of commuter
buses and standard commuter routes for school transportation.
Hence the requirement for dedicated school buses.
Ok - I can see that. I'm puzzled why you can't be more imaginativate about buses
though. Those old crocks that still get made are a 40's design at best !

Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !

Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !
Wrong again. Our busses in my county already drive 2 hours one way, to get
out to all of the parts of the county. Any bigger bus would not fit on the
road, and would have to be a 2 segment bus. Bigger busses would mean they
would have to drive a longer time to get filled up. Problem not solved.
--
Jim in NC
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morgans
Post by Pooh Bear
Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !
Wrong again. Our busses in my county already drive 2 hours one way, to get
out to all of the parts of the county. Any bigger bus would not fit on the
road,
The buses are *designed to fit on the road*.

US roads are *hugely* bigger than those in the rest of the world ! Our
vehicles would have no problem at all on your inflated obese carraigeways.

A Hong Kong 130 seat bus would likely only displace about 3 SUVs !
Post by Morgans
and would have to be a 2 segment bus.
Wrong !
Post by Morgans
Bigger busses would mean they
would have to drive a longer time to get filled up.
Wrong ! They have more entrances / exits.
Post by Morgans
Problem not solved.
Problem solved. You're just too keen on your retarded 1940's design buses ! And
your 1940's thinking too !


Graham
khobar
2005-09-20 15:06:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Morgans
Post by Pooh Bear
Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !
Wrong again. Our busses in my county already drive 2 hours one way, to get
out to all of the parts of the county. Any bigger bus would not fit on the
road,
The buses are *designed to fit on the road*.
US roads are *hugely* bigger than those in the rest of the world ! Our
vehicles would have no problem at all on your inflated obese
carraigeways.

Sounds like you've never been on a British motorway if you think US roads
are hugely bigger.
Post by Pooh Bear
A Hong Kong 130 seat bus would likely only displace about 3 SUVs !
Post by Morgans
and would have to be a 2 segment bus.
Wrong !
Post by Morgans
Bigger busses would mean they
would have to drive a longer time to get filled up.
Wrong ! They have more entrances / exits.
So in Europe the length of the bus route and thus driving time is determined
by the size of the bus and how many entrances/exits it has? Or were you
talking about Hong Kong? Wow...
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Morgans
Problem not solved.
Problem solved. You're just too keen on your retarded 1940's design buses ! And
your 1940's thinking too !
Even if that were true, it's clear that 1940's thinking makes far more sense
than yours.

Paul Nixon

sechumlib
2005-09-20 12:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !
There was no problem to begin with, until you started talking about
year-round DST or at least DST that lasts a good deal longer than most
of us want it. Now you're going on about 130-passenger double decker buses!

The mountain labored and brought forth a mouse.
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 02:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Sure, that makes sense. What kind of distance betwen pupil and school is typical
btw ?
The minimum distance in the US is typically around 1 mile before the district
has or chooses to provide transportation. This varies though. In urban areas, no
busing may be provided if commuter mass transport is available. The max distance
varies dramatically depending on area, but can go as high as 50 miles in rural
areas.
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Is it a behaviour issue ?
See my other posts. Although age segration can be a concern, staggering by age
is more of an administrative/logistical convenience.
sfb
2005-09-20 02:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Are you aware that in some parts of the US, we are talking about county
school districts, 500 square miles, 60,000 kids in 40 or more buildings?
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by sfb
Are you aware that in some parts of the US, we are talking about county
school districts, 500 square miles, 60,000 kids in 40 or more buildings?
Well ! Fancy that ! Shame you didn't mention it earlier !

Do you expect me to read your mind ?

So, what's wrong with bigger buses and transporting all the kids at the same
time ?


Graham
Post by sfb
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
john
2005-09-20 05:49:03 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 03:51:21 +0100, Pooh Bear
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by sfb
Are you aware that in some parts of the US, we are talking about county
school districts, 500 square miles, 60,000 kids in 40 or more buildings?
Well ! Fancy that ! Shame you didn't mention it earlier !
Do you expect me to read your mind ?
So, what's wrong with bigger buses and transporting all the kids at the same
time ?
Graham
Reading all the messages in this thread convinces me that Graham, the
asshole, is just a troll.

Don't respond to him.

He has absolutely no understanding of the problems facing local school
districts in the US.
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by sfb
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 06:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by john
Reading all the messages in this thread convinces me that Graham, the
asshole, is just a troll.
Don't respond to him.
He has absolutely no understanding of the problems facing local school
districts in the US.
Sure I don't ( understand the supposed problem - since it's easily fixed ) !

You ppl seem to make problems out of nothing ! It's like you actually *like* the
problem so you have something to cuss about !

I fail to see why a decent bus service can't fix the problem.

Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 06:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by john
Reading all the messages in this thread convinces me that Graham, the
asshole, is just a troll.
Don't respond to him.
He has absolutely no understanding of the problems facing local school
districts in the US.
Sure I don't ( understand the supposed problem - since it's easily fixed ) !
You ppl seem to make problems out of nothing ! It's like you actually *like* the
problem so you have something to cuss about !
I fail to see why a decent bus service can't fix the problem.
That's just it, the problem has already been fixed by staggering start
times.
--
Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it.
khobar
2005-09-20 02:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from. Certainly none of my schools had their own train
stations - you were very lucky. In my day, the train station was a five mile
walk.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=3023114
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4570000/newsid_4575700/4575797.stm
http://www.medway.gov.uk/index/environment/publictransport/buses/11302.html
http://www.rbwm.gov.uk/around/transport/yellow_bus.htm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/23/81mph_school_bus/
etc.

An article you might be interested in:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4098782.stm

Paul Nixon
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by khobar
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school?
To within anywhere between a 1 and 5-8 minute walk.
Post by khobar
From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from. Certainly none of my schools had their own train
stations - you were very lucky. In my day, the train station was a five mile
walk.
The train station was about a 1km walk from the school IIRC.


Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
The train station was about a 1km walk from the school IIRC.
Trains; those things that carry wood and furniture, and other bulk cargo?
We used to have one 15 mile line in our county, that ran once every couple
days, but it shut down. I think they still have their *one * locomotive for
sale.
--
Jim in NC
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:41:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morgans
Post by Pooh Bear
The train station was about a 1km walk from the school IIRC.
Trains; those things that carry wood and furniture, and other bulk cargo?
We used to have one 15 mile line in our county, that ran once every couple
days, but it shut down. I think they still have their *one * locomotive for
sale.
In Europe it's been the other way round !

Train companies have struggled to keep goods traffic.

Most train companies here are focused on personal transport. High speed being a
very important factor.

Graham
nobody
2005-09-20 03:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.

My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school, then is express to a bus interchange point and then continues as
a normal city bus on a specific route. There is a deal between the
school and the transit authority to have this service.

School buses have special treatment whereby no car may overtake a school
bus when it is stopped and its lights are flashing. That is not the case
with normal city buses even if they carry students. So they are not well
suited for grade school kids, but perfectly acceptavble for older students.
khobar
2005-09-20 03:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.
They were British - what does that tell you?
Post by nobody
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school, then is express to a bus interchange point and then continues as
a normal city bus on a specific route. There is a deal between the
school and the transit authority to have this service.
School buses have special treatment whereby no car may overtake a school
bus when it is stopped and its lights are flashing. That is not the case
with normal city buses even if they carry students. So they are not well
suited for grade school kids, but perfectly acceptavble for older students.
Agreed.

Paul Nixon
mrtravel
2005-09-20 03:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school,
How efficient is it to dedicate a city bus to this task?
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by nobody
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school,
How efficient is it to dedicate a city bus to this task?
Dedicate ? Why dedicate ? Presumably the city bus was going there anyway just like
the buses I used to catch. Doesn't hurt to put a few schoolkids on buses that are
already running in the right direction !

Graham
nobody
2005-09-20 06:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Dedicate ? Why dedicate ? Presumably the city bus was going there anyway just like
the buses I used to catch. Doesn't hurt to put a few schoolkids on buses that are
already running in the right direction !
Actually, that city bus deviates from its route.


A---------B-------------C
|
|
D----+


Instead of the regular A-B-C route, the bus starts at the school (D) and
goes to B and then C. From B to C, it makes all regular stops and picks
up passengers. From D to B, it is express and contains only the students
who boarded at D. Once that bus arrives at C, it then returns to B and
then A on the regular rush hour service.

So instead of introducing rush hour buses at A at 17:00, they introduce
them at D at 15:30 and they arrive back at A at 17:00 after having done
the special "student" run.


remember that transit authorities have to handle rush hour traffic and
have much unused capacity between morning and evening rush hours.


At high school level, parents/kids generally choose the school based on
many factors. Availability of transport is one important factor. They
don't necessarily choose one which is the nearest. Many in the region
choose a far away school simply because it is near a commuter train
station in the city. (and on the 16:00 train, the cars fill up with
screaming kids pumped up on sugar going back home ;-(

When I was at grade school, I had mixture of parents and school bus for
first couple of years, but later, I used public transit (including one
bus transfer). And that include the "storm of the century" when the
school sent us back home and I was able to catch 2 buses (they had
chains on their tires !) and sort of walk the rest (snow was already
quite high).

At high school, mixture of walking, public transit and later commuter
trains when we moved to suburbs.


I think it all has to do with attitudes. If normal people don't use
public transit and you leave only the weirdos on the buses, then you
make conclusion that buses are dangerous. But if normal people make full
use of the buses, then the buses are quite acceptable and not considered
dangerous for you or for students.
nobody
2005-09-20 06:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by nobody
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school,
How efficient is it to dedicate a city bus to this task?
Actually quite efficient. Consider that school ends before evening rush
hour. So bus driver starts from school, joins up with the bus' normal
route (where he then picks up regular passengers), goes to end of route
and then returns on the normal route to the city centre to handle the
rush hour load. So instead of being iddle during off peak hours, they
add an extra hour to the bus' schedule.


(Not entirely sure how it work in the morning though).
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 07:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by mrtravel
Post by nobody
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school,
How efficient is it to dedicate a city bus to this task?
Actually quite efficient. Consider that school ends before evening rush
hour. So bus driver starts from school, joins up with the bus' normal
route (where he then picks up regular passengers), goes to end of route
and then returns on the normal route to the city centre to handle the
rush hour load. So instead of being iddle during off peak hours, they
add an extra hour to the bus' schedule.
(Not entirely sure how it work in the morning though).
Morning rush hour in the outskirts of the city starts and ends earlier
in the day, those buses were often available to do school bus duty by
the time the high school kids needed to be picked up.

It would often be the early morning drivers that would do the early rush
hour, then school service, then go out of service for the mid-day
slowdown.

In Calgary, school buses are mainly used for elementary and junior high
school, which are staggered to get the most use out of the available
buses. High schools were mainly serviced by public transit, since
highschoolers don't comfortably fit on school buses (and many/most high
school students have public transit bus passes anyway)
--
1989 - The movie "Batman," notches $100 million in 10 days,
proving once and for all that the public can't get enough
of men in tights.
George Patterson
2005-09-20 15:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
(Not entirely sure how it work in the morning though).
That's 'cause it doesn't.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
mrtravel
2005-09-20 02:28:13 UTC
Permalink
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
Graham,

Each bus is making 3 trips in the morning and 3 in the afternoon.
This enables them to use one bus instead of 3. If each bus is at
capacity, they would need 3 buses if everyone started on the same schedule.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
Graham,
Each bus is making 3 trips in the morning and 3 in the afternoon.
This enables them to use one bus instead of 3. If each bus is at
capacity, they would need 3 buses if everyone started on the same schedule.
Ok, I now understand it's a capacity problem here. That wasn't previously
explicitly obvious.

I've suggested using bigger buses. That would fix it.

If available, public transport could provide the extra capacity.

Graham
sechumlib
2005-09-20 13:00:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok, I now understand it's a capacity problem here. That wasn't previously
explicitly obvious.
I've suggested using bigger buses. That would fix it.
If available, public transport could provide the extra capacity.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe we AREN'T INTERESTED in spending all
the time it would take us to justify to you, sitting in your comfortable
squire's chair in England, why your so-called solutions aren't workable
in a country to which, it appears, you have never been?
Morgans
2005-09-20 03:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Is it a behaviour issue ?
Yes, due to the nature of children picking on, and negatively influencing
the younger students.

I feel somewhat justified speaking on the subject, since I have driven a
school bus before. When a driver is alone with 45 or more students on a
bus, their behavior is somewhat on an honor system. Their is little a
driver can do to maintain discipline, and safely negotiate traffic. Even
with high school students, only, on a bus, there will always be a bully.
Usually, these kind can be taken care of, but I would not want to have a
large age difference in the group.

I have had an elementary student riding with the high school students, but
he was a "special needs" behavior problem. He rode by himself, right behind
me, and still it was nearly always a problem. Imagine that times 20.
Uuugh.

Still this does not speak to the reason some schools drive the same bus for
3 different groups, at different times. It would take triple the drivers
and busses to have enough seat spaces for all of the students. If they are
going to drive three routes, why not segregate them by age? That is why it
is done. Economics.

In my school, we do not have staggered start times, because of the extremely
large, rural nature of our county. Some students live around 35 to 40 miles
from the high school, less for the 4 elementary schools, and two middle
schools. There are so many miles to drive, it takes three times the numbers
of busses, to reduce the driving times down to an acceptable level. As it
is, some of the students are on a bus for an hour and a half, to hour and
forty five minutes. That is already too long, but the best we can do.

Where I grew up, we had the staggered start times, but our population
density was much higher. We could drive the route three times, and get the
students off in less than an hour, and use less busses, and as a result save
the district much money.
--
Jim in NC
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morgans
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Is it a behaviour issue ?
Yes, due to the nature of children picking on, and negatively influencing
the younger students.
Ahah !

Someone is honest enought to mention this ! I was kinda guessing it might be an
issue.

It's entirely unreasonable to expect the driver to keep unruly kids under
control.

If kids misbehave, surely the ultimate answer is to bar them from free school
transport ? Then the parents will have to 'pick up the tab' for their poor
'bringing up' of their miserable brats !

When I used to travel by bus there was a 'conductor'. He or she was quite able
to keep the brats in order !

I reckon a double decker bus with a conductor would fix many of the problems
mentioned.


Graham
Jeff Hacker
2005-09-20 02:41:19 UTC
Permalink
American
Continental - several trips to bankruptcy court
United - currently in bankruptcy
Delta - filed Ch. 11 today
Northwest - filed Ch. 11 today
US Airways - wasn't a major pre-deregulation, then a regional known as
Allegheny; several trips to Ch. 11
National - gobbled up by Pan Am in 1979
Braniff (original) - shut down 1982
Western - gobbled up by Delta in 1987
Eastern - shut down 1991
Pan Am (original) - shut down 1991
TWA - several trips to Ch. 11, remains gobbled up by AA in 2001
What about Republic? Or weren't they considered a major carrier before
the merger with NW?
Well I figured someone was going to ask about Republic. I'm surprised
it didn't happen sooner.
North Central
Merged with Southern to form Republic
Southern
Merged with North Central to form Republic
Piedmont
Acquired by US Air approximately 1988
PSA
Acquired by US Air approximately 1988
Air California
Name Change to Air Cal; acquired by American approximately 1989
Empire
Acquired by Piedmont mid 1980's
Mohawk
Acquired by Allegheny mid 1970's
Allegheny
Name change to US Air appromately mid 1970's
Northeast
Acquired by Delta in 1972
Southeast
bankrupt 2005.
Lake Central
Acquired by Allegheny approximately 1967
Capital
Acquired by United 1960
Capitol
bankrupt late 1990's.
World
still flying as charter carrier based in Atlanta
Pacific
merged with West Coast and Bonanza approximately 1969 to form Air West,
then renamed Hughes Airwest - ultimately acquired by Republic
Pacific Northern
merged into Western, approximately 1972
West Coast
Merged wtih Bonanza and Pacific to form AirWest
Bonanza
Merged with Pacific and West Cost to form Air West
AirWest
acquired by Howard Hughes and renamed Hughes Airwest approximately 1972,
acquired by Republic approximately 1980.
Hughes Airwest
acquired by Republic, approximately 1980
Air Florida
Bankrupt approximately 1992
People Express
Bankrupt, acquired by Continental approximately 1992
Frontier
Bankrupt approximately 1988. Some assets acquired by Continental. New
airline of same name reborn approximately 1995
New York Air
Merged into Continental approximately 1988
Provincetown Boston
Acquired by continental
Presidential
bankrupt and no longer operating
Air Atlanta
bankrupt and no longer operating (not the same company as Air Atlanta
Icelandic)
Ransome
later Trans World Express, Pan Am Express. Died when Pan Am did
Trans International
became Transamerica through name change
Transamerica
ceased service approximately 1992
Arrow Air
Still operating (cargo carrier based in MIA)
Air South
bankrupt approximately 1985
Wien Air Alaska
bankrupt approximately 1990
Reeve Aleutian
bankrupt approximately 2004
Aloha
Still operating (although in Chapter 11 bankruptcy)
Hawaiian
Still operating
Hawaiian Express
Bankrupt
ONA
name change to National Airlines, then bankrupt early 1990's
Metro Air
Acquired by American Eagle
Tower Air
bankrupt approxmately 2001
MGM Grand
Name change to Champion Air - still operating as a charter carrier
Regent Air
No longer operating
UltrAir
bankrupt
Robertson
Not sure
Robinson
Mid-Continent
Merged into Braniff, 1952
American Overseas
sold to Pan Am, 1950
Varney Air Lines
Became part of United, approximately 1933
Varney Speed Lanes/Lines
Became Continental
National Air Transport
Became National Airlines, acquired by Pan Am 1978
Boeing Air Transport
Became United Airlines
Western Air Express
Became Western Airlines, acquired by Delta 1987
Transcontinental Air Transport
Became Transcontinental & Western Air, then TWA. Acquired by American,
2001
Huff Daland Dusters
Became Delta???
Pitcairn Aviation
Became Eastern Air Lines, Inc.
Ben Franklin Air
No idea
Abe Lincoln Air
No idea
Civil War Airways
No idea
George Washington Speed Lines
Chopped down by a cherry tree
John Hancock Air Transport
name mispelled
Ice Age Air Lines
OD'd on frozen margaritas
XXX Airlines
Now ZZZ
YYY Airlines
ZZZ Airlines ???"
Hope I've saved at least some people some work.
Although I'm sure someone will bitch that I've missed some!
You forgot Braniff, Pan Am, and Panagra
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Hacker
You forgot Braniff, Pan Am, and Panagra
I think that's where they started !

Panagra ?

Graham
John Mazor
2005-09-20 02:43:33 UTC
Permalink
The "deficit reduction" rules go back 30 years, so they must have been
newly
applied to your company because their funding had fallen to 80% in a
given
plan year.
What I was told was that there was an increase in the obligations in
reaction to
the Enron scandal.
Were the "junior" layoffs to prevent them from vesting? You would think
that they'd target the senior workers, who presumably are amassing
pension
obligations faster (bigger salaries) than junior counterparts. And
sooner
or later, they're going to have to take on more new hires!
Yes, it was to keep them from vesting. There was the additional plus in
that
whatever pension funds had been ammassed for these people were then freed
up and
could be applied to the obligations for others.
As for other considerations, the company was (and still is) fighting for
its
life. The first layoff was almost exclusively people close to their 2nd or
5th
service aniversary. That's illegal, and the company is facing a
class-action
suit, but it's better than bankruptcy. That was November of 2001. Later
layoffs
were much more general -- they got rid of people who were close to
vesting, but
they also got rid of many others across the entire range of experience.
They also targeted people who were close to retirement or who could
retire, but
they didn't lay them off (however, I knew one case in which they tried to
do so
and the man insisted that he be allowed to retire). Perceived performance
was
also a factor in here (as it should be). Those very close to retirement
who had
decent work records were often given extra service years to allow them to
retire. The company had a pension plan in which those who retired at 60
got more
perks than those who retired at 55, and those retiring at 65 more than
those
retiring at 60, so they targeted people who were 59 or 64.
In December of 2001, they redid the pension plan such that the pension
funds are
directly tied to performance of investments and employees get the fund in
cash
when they leave. The earlier plan gave payments for life which were based
on the
last 5 years of salary. Existing employees could choose which plan to
take. New
ones have no choice, but the company has been laying off ever since, so
that's a
moot point. Since the cash balance plan removes the obligation to make
payments
after retirement, it reduced the company's obligations to set money aside.
In
2003, they removed the extra perks that people used to get when they
stayed
until 60 or 65 (medical benefits). That made it less important to convince
people to retire.
All told, they had over 8,000 employees in 2001. They have a little over
2,000
now. The pension obligations are only one factor in the mess. Still, the
vesting
situation was systematic. As far as I know, nobody made their 2nd or 5th
service
anniversary since November of 2001.
Good grief.
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 02:50:31 UTC
Permalink
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Sure, but that would be extremely inefficient.

Today some students are picked up before 7am for a 7:30am start time.
The next batch of pickups start around 7:30am for a 8am start time.

Others don't get picked up until 8:30 for a 9am start.

Given the fact that the buses are generally completely full by the time
they get to the schools anyway, if we did as you suggest then the
pickups for all grades would need to start at 7am, but none of the
schools could start until 9am until all of the buses have done three
pickups each.

Having buses handle pickups which all go to a single dropoff each is the
best layout to reduce the amount of time each student wastes in
transportation going to/from the school each day.

The only way to avoid separating students by age would be to reorganize
schools to run a wider range of grades in a single school rather then
the current system

Our current system (Here, anyway) is to have a huge number of elementary
(1-6) schools medium number of junior high schools (7-9) and a small
number of (10-12).

The more students you have taking the same curriculum simultaneously,
the better equipped you can be by specializing your budget.

I went to a highschool with well over a thousand students, electronics
could barely fill 5-6 (of a possible 8) classes in the single
electronics lab. (15-20 students) -- Consider what would happen if,
instead of consolidating, you had all grades in one school: How would
you justify the cost of a full time teacher to teach a specialty like
electronics with only 10-20 students interested in taking the class?
--
Nobody ever lost money underestimating the human intelligence.
-- P.T.Barnum
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
So now one of the parents doesn't get to work until an hour later, which means
they don't get *out* of work for another hour, and it's *still* dark when they
get home. Only now they're out of synch with their spouse and their employer
isn't real happy either.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
So now one of the parents doesn't get to work until an hour later, which means
they don't get *out* of work for another hour, and it's *still* dark when they
get home. Only now they're out of synch with their spouse and their employer
isn't real happy either.
That could happen any old way. You make the foolish assumption that everyone has
to work inflexible hours.

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
That could happen any old way. You make the foolish assumption that everyone has
to work inflexible hours.
Have you ever actually *worked* for a living?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:24:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
That could happen any old way. You make the foolish assumption that everyone has
to work inflexible hours.
Have you ever actually *worked* for a living?
Have you ever bought a house ?

WTF do you think I do, you IDIOT !

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:48:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
WTF do you think I do, you IDIOT !
Well, I wondered. You certainly don't seem to be familiar with the idea of
"normal business hours." Unfortunately, most bosses here are fond of them.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 05:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
WTF do you think I do, you IDIOT !
Well, I wondered. You certainly don't seem to be familiar with the idea of
"normal business hours." Unfortunately, most bosses here are fond of them.
You asked if I worked for a living.

I couldn't get a mortgage if I didn't.

The tyranny of 'normal business hours' is actually counter-productive IME. My
most productive hours are typically after everyone has gone home and I can
concentrate without interruption.

Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 05:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
WTF do you think I do, you IDIOT !
Well, I wondered. You certainly don't seem to be familiar with the idea of
"normal business hours." Unfortunately, most bosses here are fond of them.
That's unfortunate. You should look for a better boss.

My boss likes the fact that I give my most productive hours to the
company rather then "wasting" them on my personal life. I'm all but
useless when I first get up, although I can be happy and cheerful if
needed, I'm not especially mentally productive for at least a couple
hours.

Good time for me to catch up on personal email, pay bills, clean the
house, order groceries, all sorts of stuff that doesn't need my mind to
be working full speed.

Moreover, it also results in my company having more of a 24/7 feel to it
when you can get email technical support responses at 8am or 4pm or 2am
(or mid-day, if you happen to be on the other side of the planet)

There is precious little need for most office jobs to be done during
"normal business hours"
--
"I think women and sea men don't mix"
-- Smithers, Simpsons
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:34:15 UTC
Permalink
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching.
Then you haven't been reading. It's to allow the school buses to make several
trips. They all work hard at getting the high school kids to school on time. The
next trip gets the middle school kids in. The third run picks up the elementary
school kids. Or maybe the other way 'round.

With that setup, it makes more sense to have the middle school start half an
hour after the high school.

If you wanted to start the schools all at the same time, you could have the high
school and middle school kids wait around at school until the elementary kids
got there. Of course, that would play Hob with the afternoon bus schedule.
Alternately, you could triple the number of buses and drivers. My taxes are high
enough now, thank you very much, and I have a hard enough time driving anywhere
when the buses are on the roads without there being three times as many.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching.
Then you haven't been reading. It's to allow the school buses to make several
trips. They all work hard at getting the high school kids to school on time. The
next trip gets the middle school kids in. The third run picks up the elementary
school kids. Or maybe the other way 'round.
With that setup, it makes more sense to have the middle school start half an
hour after the high school.
So, what you're saying is that school hours are influenced by the limited
availablity of transport ?
Post by George Patterson
If you wanted to start the schools all at the same time, you could have the high
school and middle school kids wait around at school until the elementary kids
got there. Of course, that would play Hob with the afternoon bus schedule.
Alternately, you could triple the number of buses and drivers. My taxes are high
enough now, thank you very much, and I have a hard enough time driving anywhere
when the buses are on the roads without there being three times as many.
You're saying that school buses *get in your way* ? Tssk !

I fail to understand why you don't use bigger buses ! You need fewer drivers hence
less wages cost for starters !

Consider the Boeing 747 for a comparison example !


Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
So, what you're saying is that school hours are influenced by the limited
availablity of transport ?
Of course they are.
Post by Pooh Bear
I fail to understand why you don't use bigger buses !
Our existing buses are already bigger than anything you have in that rinky-dink
postage stamp you call a country.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:23:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
So, what you're saying is that school hours are influenced by the limited
availablity of transport ?
Of course they are.
Curious !
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
I fail to understand why you don't use bigger buses !
Our existing buses are already bigger than anything you have in that rinky-dink
postage stamp you call a country.
Don't be silly.

Your 'buses' are a joke !

I suggest you belong in the 'short bus'.

Graham
Bertie the Bunyip
2005-09-20 14:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by George Patterson
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending
on the age group they're teaching.
Then you haven't been reading. It's to allow the school buses to make
several trips. They all work hard at getting the high school kids to
school on time. The next trip gets the middle school kids in. The
third run picks up the elementary school kids. Or maybe the other way
'round.
With that setup, it makes more sense to have the middle school start
half an hour after the high school.
So, what you're saying is that school hours are influenced by the
limited availablity of transport ?
Post by George Patterson
If you wanted to start the schools all at the same time, you could
have the high school and middle school kids wait around at school
until the elementary kids got there. Of course, that would play Hob
with the afternoon bus schedule. Alternately, you could triple the
number of buses and drivers. My taxes are high enough now, thank you
very much, and I have a hard enough time driving anywhere when the
buses are on the roads without there being three times as many.
You're saying that school buses *get in your way* ? Tssk !
I fail to understand why you don't use bigger buses ! You need fewer
drivers hence less wages cost for starters !
Consider the Boeing 747 for a comparison example !
Fjukkwit.



Bertie
Hatunen
2005-09-20 04:53:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:26:41 +0100, Pooh Bear
Elementary school in this town begins before 8AM, but the kids are
home by 2:30. There is plenty of room in that schedule for the entire
operation to be done during daylight, even on the shortest day of the
year.
And if that town were in my location, and were on DST all year, classes
would start before 8:00 which would be before 7:00 by "sun time". It
would DEFINITELY be dark while the kids were waiting on the street for
the school bus.
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
RJ
This seems to be a common theme.
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's at least partly because most school systems provide school
buses to transport the children, and staggered schedules for the
three levels of schooling means (A) only one set of buses need be
purchased and (B) the drivers can be fully utilized without
hiring a different set of drivers for each level.


************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:43:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hatunen
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:26:41 +0100, Pooh Bear
Elementary school in this town begins before 8AM, but the kids are
home by 2:30. There is plenty of room in that schedule for the entire
operation to be done during daylight, even on the shortest day of the
year.
And if that town were in my location, and were on DST all year, classes
would start before 8:00 which would be before 7:00 by "sun time". It
would DEFINITELY be dark while the kids were waiting on the street for
the school bus.
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
RJ
This seems to be a common theme.
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's at least partly because most school systems provide school
buses to transport the children, and staggered schedules for the
three levels of schooling means (A) only one set of buses need be
purchased and (B) the drivers can be fully utilized without
hiring a different set of drivers for each level.
I understand the apparent conflict here.

Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !

Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 04:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)

It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
--
The following was seen at a car dealership,
announcing new seat belt legislation:

"Belt your family. It's the law."
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 05:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.

Graham

p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
Jay Beckman
2005-09-20 05:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.
Graham
p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
Dunno why I really want to jump in here, but:

Why are you losing sleep over how we get our kids to school?

In the UK and Europe you have always done things "your way" while here in
the US, we do them "our way." We do what works best for us..period. You
are certainly welcome to do things however you see fit, but it doesn't mean
I'm gonna give a rat's posterior about it. And, I'm certainly not going to
criticize or berate your system(s). Certainly there are bigger fish to fry
than how US school children get to school?

And, I'll be damned if I can figure out any connection amongst the specific
newsgroups that this thread is splattered across...

Nothing personal (it's the subject and not the author, I assure you...) but
*PLONK*

Jay Beckman
Chandler, Arizona
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 05:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jay Beckman
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.
Graham
p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
Why are you losing sleep over how we get our kids to school?
Not really losing sleep. Just puzzled.
Post by Jay Beckman
In the UK and Europe you have always done things "your way" while here in
the US, we do them "our way." We do what works best for us..period. You
are certainly welcome to do things however you see fit, but it doesn't mean
I'm gonna give a rat's posterior about it. And, I'm certainly not going to
criticize or berate your system(s). Certainly there are bigger fish to fry
than how US school children get to school?
Just puzzled why the US is fixated with ignoring possible better solutions that
might have some European influence.
Post by Jay Beckman
And, I'll be damned if I can figure out any connection amongst the specific
newsgroups that this thread is splattered across...
Blame the OP !

Nought to do with me !
Post by Jay Beckman
Nothing personal (it's the subject and not the author, I assure you...) but
*PLONK*
Jay Beckman
Chandler, Arizona
I never *plonk* anyone ! I reckon everyone has a point to make ( even if they
really show themselves to be clueless ).

Graham
Bertie the Bunyip
2005-09-20 14:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by Jay Beckman
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence
*reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will
work 1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in
other words, the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not
their services were required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several
trips, one for each destination, since you're paying for the
drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.
Graham
p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
Why are you losing sleep over how we get our kids to school?
Not really losing sleep. Just puzzled.
Post by Jay Beckman
In the UK and Europe you have always done things "your way" while
here in the US, we do them "our way." We do what works best for
us..period. You are certainly welcome to do things however you see
fit, but it doesn't mean I'm gonna give a rat's posterior about it.
And, I'm certainly not going to criticize or berate your system(s).
Certainly there are bigger fish to fry than how US school children
get to school?
Just puzzled why the US is fixated with ignoring possible better
solutions that might have some European influence.
Post by Jay Beckman
And, I'll be damned if I can figure out any connection amongst the
specific newsgroups that this thread is splattered across...
Blame the OP !
Nought to do with me !
Post by Jay Beckman
Nothing personal (it's the subject and not the author, I assure
you...) but *PLONK*
Jay Beckman
Chandler, Arizona
I never *plonk* anyone ! I reckon everyone has a point to make ( even
if they really show themselves to be clueless ).
Only fair, since you're completely clueless yourself, fjukktard.


Bertie
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 05:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.
Graham
p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
It could be done, but it requires substantially more buses, longer
average door-to-door trip times for students, and offers very little
advantage in return.
--
"I think women and sea men don't mix"
-- Smithers, Simpsons
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 06:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.
Graham
p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
It could be done, but it requires substantially more buses, longer
average door-to-door trip times for students, and offers very little
advantage in return.
So you say !

Have you actually tried it ?

Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 06:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I understand the apparent conflict here.
Bigger buses though would require fewer drivers and hence *reduce* costs !
Not at all. You'll have a lot of trouble getting drives that will work
1-hour shifts, and here the legal minimum is 3 hours (in other words,
the drivers would be paid for 3 hours whether or not their services were
required)
I'll guess that 3 hours is set by established paractice.
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
Depends on the destinations ( and how flung they are ) mainly.
Graham
p.s. Funny thing is that in the UK we can sort out a single bus 'shift' ! Why
can't you ?
It could be done, but it requires substantially more buses, longer
average door-to-door trip times for students, and offers very little
advantage in return.
So you say !
Have you actually tried it ?
No need, simple logic will suffice. More stops (pickups and/or
dropoffs) means that, on average, door-to-door time increases.
--
Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it.
nobody
2005-09-20 07:28:56 UTC
Permalink
The solution to the school busing issue in the USA:

Sikorsky heavy lift helicopters. Put 60 students in them, and each jumps
out while over his own house. So in grade one, first thing they learn is
how to jump out of helicopter with parachute :-) First day's homework:
how to fold parachute :-)


Consider the advantage: your kids would never have to walk on dangerous
streets anymore.
Jim Ley
2005-09-20 09:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
It could be done, but it requires substantially more buses, longer
average door-to-door trip times for students, and offers very little
advantage in return.
Having all children leave and return home at the same time has many
advantages, including it's a lot easier to organise work around the
times they're away - A parent with a child on each of the 3 buses has
to pay maximum childcare costs or is unavailable to work for up to 2
hours a day they otherwise would be.

Jim.
nobody
2005-09-20 07:15:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
You're also paying for fuel. And 3 trips wastes fuel, especially if the
trips are over longer distances.

It is smarter to have the "school buses" for the young kids only, and
use conventional city buses for the older kids who don't require the
special traffic handling associated with school buses. The school simply
needs to rent the city buses for a few hours which greatly reduces its
capital expenditures since it needs to buy fewer school buses.
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 08:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by DevilsPGD
It's significantly more efficient to have more buses run several trips,
one for each destination, since you're paying for the drivers anyway.
You're also paying for fuel. And 3 trips wastes fuel, especially if the
trips are over longer distances.
Sure, if they're starting and ending in the same place multiple times.
This is not always the case, the school bus I took to junior high would
start it's route where I lived, pick up all the kids, drive 10-15
minutes to the school, then do it's next pickups in that area.

The routes were reasonably optimized to reduce needless back and forth
trips, although it does still happen.

Even so though, this isn't a problem solved by more buses. Bigger buses
might help -- But although a junior high school could easily fill
several buses, elementary schools are typically much smaller and only
have 1-3 buses each, so a larger number of small buses is still more
efficient (because each bus travels a relatively small area, rather then
having to drive right past the school or do a spiral or something
similar)

Note that I'm in an urban area, if you're talking about a rural area
with significant distances between pickups and the school, plus in an
area where more then one bus travels the same route, it might well be
more efficient to look into larger buses that do less frequent passes.
Post by nobody
It is smarter to have the "school buses" for the young kids only, and
use conventional city buses for the older kids who don't require the
special traffic handling associated with school buses. The school simply
needs to rent the city buses for a few hours which greatly reduces its
capital expenditures since it needs to buy fewer school buses.
This has been done for many years in Calgary, junior high (7-9) and
elementary (K/1-6) get school busses and staggered start times, high
schools run on public transportation, in some cases with specialized
routes, in some cases with just added capacity to the regular routes.

I'm a few blocks from a highschool right now, and the bus that goes by
my house goes directly to a highschool then continues on down the road.
When school lets out they always run several (I think 3 or maybe 4?)
buses about 2 minutes apart, rather then the usual 15 minutes apart
throughout the day. When they get to the end of the line, they head out
to the industrial areas to start rush hour pickups (many industrial
areas in Calgary only get buses every 30-60 minutes during the day, but
in at least one area they'll get as many as 12 buses per hour during
rush hour)

Calgary might be an exception rather then the rule, but not many buses
(school or public transit) spend much time traveling to or from the
start/end of their routes other then at the very beginning and end of
shift (getting to/from the storage yards), they find ways to put those
buses in service and to avoid needless looping.
--
Going to war over religion is fighting to see who's got the
better imaginary friend.
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:37:32 UTC
Permalink
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
I gather you live in Britain. Most of the U.S. doesn't have "normal" scheduled
bus service or rail. Your scheme works great in a few of our larger metropolitan
areas but nowhere else.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Hatunen
2005-09-20 04:57:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Duh. They do. But since each age range fills the buses they have
to be used over again for each level. Either that, or they would
have to buy threee times as many buses and hire three times as
many drivers and assistants.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
We have elementary schools for those in grades K=5, middle
schools for grades 6-8 and high schools for graees 9-12 ( it
varies from urisdciton to jurisdiction, though, with some places
having junior high schools, grades 7-9, and, oh never mind.

************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:46:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Duh. They do. But since each age range fills the buses they have
to be used over again for each level. Either that, or they would
have to buy threee times as many buses and hire three times as
many drivers and assistants.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
We have elementary schools for those in grades K=5, middle
schools for grades 6-8 and high schools for graees 9-12 ( it
varies from urisdciton to jurisdiction, though, with some places
having junior high schools, grades 7-9, and, oh never mind.
Again.... I'l say buy bigger buses !

That daft yellow 1940's school bus we see on the movies has never ever moved
with the times !

One driver can today move 130 pupils if you actually want to do so !

Graham
TOliver
2005-09-20 05:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Duh. They do. But since each age range fills the buses they have
to be used over again for each level. Either that, or they would
have to buy threee times as many buses and hire three times as
many drivers and assistants.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
We have elementary schools for those in grades K=5, middle
schools for grades 6-8 and high schools for graees 9-12 ( it
varies from urisdciton to jurisdiction, though, with some places
having junior high schools, grades 7-9, and, oh never mind.
Again.... I'l say buy bigger buses !
That daft yellow 1940's school bus we see on the movies has never ever moved
with the times !
One driver can today move 130 pupils if you actually want to do so !
You really don't "get it" do you?

In much of the US the school bus problem has less to do with numbers of
students than it does with long distances (and increments in time) which
must be traveled to collect and return students. Ther are few "full" school
busses, but many routes which take more than an hour to run, some for just a
handful of students. Even the suburbs, more heavily populated, can still
cover substantial areas.

TMO
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 06:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by TOliver
Post by Pooh Bear
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Duh. They do. But since each age range fills the buses they have
to be used over again for each level. Either that, or they would
have to buy threee times as many buses and hire three times as
many drivers and assistants.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
We have elementary schools for those in grades K=5, middle
schools for grades 6-8 and high schools for graees 9-12 ( it
varies from urisdciton to jurisdiction, though, with some places
having junior high schools, grades 7-9, and, oh never mind.
Again.... I'l say buy bigger buses !
That daft yellow 1940's school bus we see on the movies has never ever moved
with the times !
One driver can today move 130 pupils if you actually want to do so !
You really don't "get it" do you?
Well..... it's taken a hell of time to get some ppl to properly explain the
problem !
Post by TOliver
In much of the US the school bus problem has less to do with numbers of
students than it does with long distances (and increments in time) which
must be traveled to collect and return students. Ther are few "full" school
busses,
Some respondents disagree ! They say it *is* capacity !
Post by TOliver
but many routes which take more than an hour to run, some for just a
handful of students. Even the suburbs, more heavily populated, can still
cover substantial areas.
At the end of the day...... The USA is *supposed to be* the most advanced nation
on Earth , Yes ?

If the USA can't even get kids to school on time what the hell are we expected
to make of you ?


Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 06:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Some respondents disagree ! They say it *is* capacity !
It varies depending on area. Where I live, the problem is raw capacity,
and the solution is running the buses more then once per day.
--
Men are from Earth. Women are from Earth. Deal with it.
nobody
2005-09-20 07:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
That daft yellow 1940's school bus we see on the movies has never ever moved
with the times !
Reminds me of the 1940s UPS trucks. Yet, UPS claims their fleet is quite
modern and efficient, of of those 1940s trucks running on alternative fuels.

The "1940s" school bus is extremely recognizable. And since any driver
is REQUIRED to handle such a bus differently (traffic MUST stop on both
sides while bus is stopped to let kids on/off),

Having a very obvious bus shape/colour is good.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 10:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by Pooh Bear
That daft yellow 1940's school bus we see on the movies has never ever moved
with the times !
Reminds me of the 1940s UPS trucks. Yet, UPS claims their fleet is quite
modern and efficient, of of those 1940s trucks running on alternative fuels.
The "1940s" school bus is extremely recognizable. And since any driver
is REQUIRED to handle such a bus differently (traffic MUST stop on both
sides while bus is stopped to let kids on/off),
Having a very obvious bus shape/colour is good.
Nothing wrong on that account for sure.

Similarly - British drivers recognise a 'double-decker' at a good distance. Pretty
tricky to miss in fact !

Graham
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:00:44 UTC
Permalink
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
In significantly rural areas the busses often pick up everyone at once.
In more concentrated areas it is thought that it is better to limit
the contact that kids have with other ages.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
In significantly rural areas the busses often pick up everyone at once.
In more concentrated areas it is thought that it is better to limit
the contact that kids have with other ages.
And the reason for that is ????? ( expecting a dysfunctional answer - that needs
to be addressed at source by measures like teaching - and valueing - appropriate
parenting skills .....)

Graham
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Graham
What's a normally scheduled bus service?
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
What's a normally scheduled bus service?
One that runs to a published timetable !

I'm going to guess that maybe such a thing doesn't exist where you live any
more ?

Time to ask *big* questions about where 'society' is going !

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
I'm going to guess that maybe such a thing doesn't exist where you live any
more ?
Aha! I think he's got it!

Except that it never did exist in most of the U.S..

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
I'm going to guess that maybe such a thing doesn't exist where you live any
more ?
Aha! I think he's got it!
Except that it never did exist in most of the U.S..
OK - so would you*like* a scheduled bus service ?

I'll admit it's in decline here too. One's kinda expected to have your own
transport if you live ouside major urban areas. A sign of the times.

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 15:06:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
OK - so would you*like* a scheduled bus service ?
I have no use for it at present.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Working parents might have problem arranging child care in the AM.
And there are a hell of a lot of working parents in Niskayuna. It's the
ultimate two-career family town.
What a shame.
RJ
Makes for a great income though !
Graham
Actually not. The two incomes usually have about the purchasing power
of a single income from the 50s.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Makes for a great income though !
Graham
Actually not. The two incomes usually have about the purchasing power
of a single income from the 50s.
That's another story entirely !

Graham
TOliver
2005-09-20 05:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
We don't have those sorts of suburban or intercity bus systems (or much of
any busses except in urban areas). My subsurban community is touched on one
edge by one 7AM-6PM city bus route, 30 minute frequency, serving a couple of
large employers which service health and insurance records, badly paid short
tenure mostly telephone solicitors many of whom don't have cars. Another
bus route has one stop on a highway frontage road, but stats show it not
haveing loaded or unloaded any passengers on its short jaunt along the edhge
of town. It serves a part of the industrial district.

School kids in NYC don't have school busses and regularly ride transit
busses and the subway with passes/reduced fares. but the county in which I
live, with a few more than 200,000 folks but a large land area, well over
1000 square miles , more than a dozen different "independent" school
districts, some quite small but no less self protective and proud (along
with a double handful of private schools), and each of the public school
districtswith its own bussing system, with transport mandated by state law
for kids more than two miles from the school house, has as many different
start times, end times and bussing methods as the entire Scuppered H'aisles
(or close to it). The largest school district in the central and largest
city, 100,000, has a land area of several hundred square miles, as large as
a European city many times its population, and a very modest public transit
system, but 13,000 students, most of whom must be "bussed" to comply with
the old "2 mile" rule. Of course, at 16, by their junior year in high
school up to 30% of drive their own or family cars to school, while another
25% or so ride in style with friends.

Is the system efficient? Of course not. It's "independent" and
independently minded, and local preferences dictate policy and mergers. A
couple of the districts and some of the schools are quite good, but the
general trend is rottener than something in Denmark.

TMO
krw
2005-09-20 14:21:54 UTC
Permalink
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
As with other things in the US, schools in many communities may serve a large
geographic area. The classic solution to this has been to provide bus transport
to/from school for students that live more than a specified distance from the
school.
Sure, that makes sense. What kind of distance betwen pupil and school is typical
btw ?
Depends on the town. My town shares its high school with the
"village", so it's likely 5 miles on average. Some school districts
have no high school at all, so bus students perhaps 20-40 miles.
Since busses and drivers aren't cheap, school districts stagger starting times,
allowing a single bus/driver to serve up to three schools a day. Staggering
times on a school by school basis would be very confusing and difficult to
manage, so the times are split by type of school. In the US, primary schooling
is generally broken into three age based categories - Grade / Middle (or Jr Hi)
/ High School, with the older ages starting earlier than the younger ages.
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Then you have to buy three times the number of busses. They are *not*
cheap nor are drivers. That's the problem. Using the busses for three
trips, twice a day is far more efficient use of resource.
Is it a behaviour issue ?
Only partly. Cost is the real issue.
--
Keith
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