Discussion:
American Airlines - Last one standing
(too old to reply)
sechumlib
2005-09-20 01:49:34 UTC
Permalink
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Well, that's lovely for a place that has enough scheduled bus service to
handle it. Most parts of the US don't. My part certainly doesn't.

Why don't you give up trying to reform us?
JL Grasso
2005-09-20 01:55:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Graham
Obviously.

Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!

Jerry
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?

Graham
JL Grasso
2005-09-20 02:24:07 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 03:04:36 +0100, Pooh Bear
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
It's more than high enough to know a post editing, uninformed,
self-absorbed scum swallowing netkkkop when I see one.

Your knowledge of aviation is still quite marginal, BTW.

Jerry
mrtravel
2005-09-20 02:31:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Neither does most of the UK ! London's provision is probably overall little
different to that of NY.

We get by though

Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Neither does most of the UK ! London's provision is probably overall little
different to that of NY.
We get by though
Have you been to New York City? Have you been to New York state, all of the
way to upstate New York? In case you didn't know, they are nothing alike,
in any way, shape or form.

It would not get by in Upstate New York, or much else, outside of New York
City.

I hate being abusive, but I'm getting really close.
--
Jim in NC
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Great.......... if public transport exists.
Most of the US doesn't have a London style transit system.
Nor does most of the UK. Didn't they kill a lot of rural & village
service a few years ago?
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 04:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Nor does most of the UK. Didn't they kill a lot of rural & village
service a few years ago?
Certainly the rail system has been significantly rationalized.
Alice, SWMBO
2005-09-20 02:59:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Public transport in this country can't even rise to the job of taking adults
to work.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:48:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alice, SWMBO
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about
the
Post by Pooh Bear
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport
can
Post by Pooh Bear
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Public transport in this country can't even rise to the job of taking adults
to work.
It sounds like you have a fundamental problem there !

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
It sounds like you have a fundamental problem there !
Not if we don't shift to year-round DST, we don't.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:16:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Post by Pooh Bear
It sounds like you have a fundamental problem there !
Not if we don't shift to year-round DST, we don't.
I thought there was a problem with available daylight hours during winter
regardless of the whether DST is used or not !

Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:29:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Oh, yeah, I "almost" forgot about public transport.

Did you mean the taxi cabs from the next county over, or *the one* handicap
12 passenger lift van, that a guy drives 15 or 20 hours a week, that the
local government (social services) supplies, to take elderly and handicapp
persons to the doctor and grocery store. (on demand calls) I think we could
make that work for our 1600 student high school, 4 elementary, and three
middle schools.

Not.

My IQ must be really low, too.
--
Jim in NC
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Post by JL Grasso
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:28:06 +0100, Pooh Bear
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Obviously.
Bwaaaaaahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahwahw!
Jerry
Ok - Mr Smartarse - what exactly do you find problematic or puzzling about the
above ? Is your IQ so low that you can't understand that public transport can
rise to the job of taking kids to school ?
Graham
Only if there is public transport that covers the desired ride in a
reasonable manner.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 01:56:20 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
How deep would you recommend that they stack the students? I'm
assuming you'd agree that putting the highschool kids on the bottom
layer would help stabilize the pile...
Ahhh.... someone 'kinda' gave an answer !

You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?

Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.

They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !

Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.

Graham
mrtravel
2005-09-20 02:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
Graham
Do these cost the same as the smaller buses?
Are they as safe?
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:08:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
Graham
Do these cost the same as the smaller buses?
Are they as safe?
I honestly don't know the cost of such buses. Double decker buses are more common
in Europe and countries that were formerly run by Britain.

You'll find double deckers in Mumbai ( Bombay ) for example.

The largest double deckers I've travelled on were in Hong Kong ( also previously
British ) . They could carry up to 130 seated pasengers.

They have been shown to be very safe.

Graham
Alice, SWMBO
2005-09-20 03:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw. You
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
It's not the size of the bus that's the issue. It's the extensive routes
that must be run. If you put all the kids on one bus going to three
different destinations and all the schools start at the same time, you still
have to start before the crack of dawn in order to pick up all the kids and
make three dropoffs, being sure to get the last third to their school on
time....which, remember, starts at the same time as the first school. And
then reverse the process in the afternoon. Don't forget that it can take
10-15 minutes at each school just to get the buses loaded. Don't you want
to be in that first group? Now *everyone* has a very long day. If you put
them all on the same bus and still stagger the start times to account for
the extra distances between schools, you'll have the first group spending a
whole lot of extra time on that bus waiting for the other two groups to
finish, both in the morning and afternoon.

Since you seem to have all the answers, I am just shocked that your services
haven't been demanded as a visiting urban planner.
JL Grasso
2005-09-20 03:20:43 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:12:09 -0700, "Alice, SWMBO"
Post by Alice, SWMBO
Post by Pooh Bear
You mean - there's *lots* of kids to transport ?
Haven't you heard of 'double decker buses' ? We have them in the UK btw.
You
Post by Pooh Bear
may know them as 'London buses'. Carry around 70 pax.
They have even bigger ones in HK btw. Max pax up to around 130 persons !
Now tell me a 130 seater bus can't cope.
It's not the size of the bus that's the issue. It's the extensive routes
that must be run. If you put all the kids on one bus going to three
different destinations and all the schools start at the same time, you still
have to start before the crack of dawn in order to pick up all the kids and
make three dropoffs, being sure to get the last third to their school on
time....which, remember, starts at the same time as the first school. And
then reverse the process in the afternoon. Don't forget that it can take
10-15 minutes at each school just to get the buses loaded. Don't you want
to be in that first group? Now *everyone* has a very long day. If you put
them all on the same bus and still stagger the start times to account for
the extra distances between schools, you'll have the first group spending a
whole lot of extra time on that bus waiting for the other two groups to
finish, both in the morning and afternoon.
Since you seem to have all the answers, I am just shocked that your services
haven't been demanded as a visiting urban planner.
Or a paper weight.

Jerry
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 01:58:00 UTC
Permalink
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's a little matter of wanting to spend school system money on
EDUCATION rather than on enough buses to pick up EVERY student at the
same time.
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.

Graham
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 02:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's a little matter of wanting to spend school system money on
EDUCATION rather than on enough buses to pick up EVERY student at the
same time.
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.
Because regardless of the size of the bus, it's still more efficient to
have the buses running for 3 hours a day rather then having three times
the possible capacity and have each bus run for only 1 hour a day.
--
Nobody ever lost money underestimating the human intelligence.
-- P.T.Barnum
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by DevilsPGD
Post by Pooh Bear
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's a little matter of wanting to spend school system money on
EDUCATION rather than on enough buses to pick up EVERY student at the
same time.
Why don't you use something more modern than those 1940's style school buses then ?
I've been on buses in Hong Kong that'll carry at least 130.
Because regardless of the size of the bus, it's still more efficient to
have the buses running for 3 hours a day rather then having three times
the possible capacity and have each bus run for only 1 hour a day.
Yes, I can see the logic of that.

It's counter to the possibilty of ensuring all the kids travel within daylight hours
however.

Graham
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 01:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Mixing ages is not the issue. The issue is that in the US, schools are required
to use school buses, unlike in other countries, where standard buses are
frequently used. This means that said buses must be purchased by said school
districts, or leased from a company that purchases them.

Starting all schools at the same time would require 3 times as many buses, and
three times the cost of running those buses.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Not at all. You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of utilization and
what it costs to run buses for just an hour in the morning and an hour in the
afternoon.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Mixing ages is not the issue. The issue is that in the US, schools are required
to use school buses, unlike in other countries, where standard buses are
frequently used. This means that said buses must be purchased by said school
districts, or leased from a company that purchases them.
Starting all schools at the same time would require 3 times as many buses, and
three times the cost of running those buses.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Not at all. You seem to have a problem grasping the concept of utilization and
what it costs to run buses for just an hour in the morning and an hour in the
afternoon.
S'ok !

You have at last out of all the posters here *finally* explained what it's about !
Essentially - limited resources. Thank you.

I simply suggest larger buses. You'll see from another post of mine that it's
possible for buses to cary 130 pax. It's up to you to decide if you want to use
them.

Graham
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 02:00:32 UTC
Permalink
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Student fares are offered on mass transit systems in major cities.

However, unlike in the UK and other countries, the low population density and
associated lack of mass transit in most of the US precludes the use of commuter
buses and standard commuter routes for school transportation.

Hence the requirement for dedicated school buses.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Student fares are offered on mass transit systems in major cities.
However, unlike in the UK and other countries, the low population density and
associated lack of mass transit in most of the US precludes the use of commuter
buses and standard commuter routes for school transportation.
Hence the requirement for dedicated school buses.
Ok - I can see that. I'm puzzled why you can't be more imaginativate about buses
though. Those old crocks that still get made are a 40's design at best !

Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !

Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:37:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
Use bigger buses ! Problem solved !
Wrong again. Our busses in my county already drive 2 hours one way, to get
out to all of the parts of the county. Any bigger bus would not fit on the
road, and would have to be a 2 segment bus. Bigger busses would mean they
would have to drive a longer time to get filled up. Problem not solved.
--
Jim in NC
Clark W. Griswold, Jr.
2005-09-20 02:05:13 UTC
Permalink
Sure, that makes sense. What kind of distance betwen pupil and school is typical
btw ?
The minimum distance in the US is typically around 1 mile before the district
has or chooses to provide transportation. This varies though. In urban areas, no
busing may be provided if commuter mass transport is available. The max distance
varies dramatically depending on area, but can go as high as 50 miles in rural
areas.
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Is it a behaviour issue ?
See my other posts. Although age segration can be a concern, staggering by age
is more of an administrative/logistical convenience.
sfb
2005-09-20 02:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Are you aware that in some parts of the US, we are talking about county
school districts, 500 square miles, 60,000 kids in 40 or more buildings?
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 02:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by sfb
Are you aware that in some parts of the US, we are talking about county
school districts, 500 square miles, 60,000 kids in 40 or more buildings?
Well ! Fancy that ! Shame you didn't mention it earlier !

Do you expect me to read your mind ?

So, what's wrong with bigger buses and transporting all the kids at the same
time ?


Graham
Post by sfb
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
khobar
2005-09-20 02:18:24 UTC
Permalink
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from. Certainly none of my schools had their own train
stations - you were very lucky. In my day, the train station was a five mile
walk.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
http://www.gmpte.com/content.cfm?subcategory_id=3023114
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4570000/newsid_4575700/4575797.stm
http://www.medway.gov.uk/index/environment/publictransport/buses/11302.html
http://www.rbwm.gov.uk/around/transport/yellow_bus.htm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/23/81mph_school_bus/
etc.

An article you might be interested in:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4098782.stm

Paul Nixon
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by khobar
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school?
To within anywhere between a 1 and 5-8 minute walk.
Post by khobar
From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from. Certainly none of my schools had their own train
stations - you were very lucky. In my day, the train station was a five mile
walk.
The train station was about a 1km walk from the school IIRC.


Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 04:43:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
The train station was about a 1km walk from the school IIRC.
Trains; those things that carry wood and furniture, and other bulk cargo?
We used to have one 15 mile line in our county, that ran once every couple
days, but it shut down. I think they still have their *one * locomotive for
sale.
--
Jim in NC
nobody
2005-09-20 03:09:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.

My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school, then is express to a bus interchange point and then continues as
a normal city bus on a specific route. There is a deal between the
school and the transit authority to have this service.

School buses have special treatment whereby no car may overtake a school
bus when it is stopped and its lights are flashing. That is not the case
with normal city buses even if they carry students. So they are not well
suited for grade school kids, but perfectly acceptavble for older students.
khobar
2005-09-20 03:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.
They were British - what does that tell you?
Post by nobody
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school, then is express to a bus interchange point and then continues as
a normal city bus on a specific route. There is a deal between the
school and the transit authority to have this service.
School buses have special treatment whereby no car may overtake a school
bus when it is stopped and its lights are flashing. That is not the case
with normal city buses even if they carry students. So they are not well
suited for grade school kids, but perfectly acceptavble for older students.
Agreed.

Paul Nixon
mrtravel
2005-09-20 03:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by nobody
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school,
How efficient is it to dedicate a city bus to this task?
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
Post by nobody
Post by khobar
Did the normal scheduled buses take you right to the school? From my school
days closest stop was within a mile or so - along the main road, and that is
where the
bus service worked to/from.
Then both your school admin and the transit people are incompetant.
My newphew (high school) catches a city bus waiting for students at the
school,
How efficient is it to dedicate a city bus to this task?
Dedicate ? Why dedicate ? Presumably the city bus was going there anyway just like
the buses I used to catch. Doesn't hurt to put a few schoolkids on buses that are
already running in the right direction !

Graham
mrtravel
2005-09-20 02:28:13 UTC
Permalink
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
Graham,

Each bus is making 3 trips in the morning and 3 in the afternoon.
This enables them to use one bus instead of 3. If each bus is at
capacity, they would need 3 buses if everyone started on the same schedule.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by mrtravel
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
Graham,
Each bus is making 3 trips in the morning and 3 in the afternoon.
This enables them to use one bus instead of 3. If each bus is at
capacity, they would need 3 buses if everyone started on the same schedule.
Ok, I now understand it's a capacity problem here. That wasn't previously
explicitly obvious.

I've suggested using bigger buses. That would fix it.

If available, public transport could provide the extra capacity.

Graham
Morgans
2005-09-20 03:28:38 UTC
Permalink
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Is it a behaviour issue ?
Yes, due to the nature of children picking on, and negatively influencing
the younger students.

I feel somewhat justified speaking on the subject, since I have driven a
school bus before. When a driver is alone with 45 or more students on a
bus, their behavior is somewhat on an honor system. Their is little a
driver can do to maintain discipline, and safely negotiate traffic. Even
with high school students, only, on a bus, there will always be a bully.
Usually, these kind can be taken care of, but I would not want to have a
large age difference in the group.

I have had an elementary student riding with the high school students, but
he was a "special needs" behavior problem. He rode by himself, right behind
me, and still it was nearly always a problem. Imagine that times 20.
Uuugh.

Still this does not speak to the reason some schools drive the same bus for
3 different groups, at different times. It would take triple the drivers
and busses to have enough seat spaces for all of the students. If they are
going to drive three routes, why not segregate them by age? That is why it
is done. Economics.

In my school, we do not have staggered start times, because of the extremely
large, rural nature of our county. Some students live around 35 to 40 miles
from the high school, less for the 4 elementary schools, and two middle
schools. There are so many miles to drive, it takes three times the numbers
of busses, to reduce the driving times down to an acceptable level. As it
is, some of the students are on a bus for an hour and a half, to hour and
forty five minutes. That is already too long, but the best we can do.

Where I grew up, we had the staggered start times, but our population
density was much higher. We could drive the route three times, and get the
students off in less than an hour, and use less busses, and as a result save
the district much money.
--
Jim in NC
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Morgans
Is there any reason the buses can't transport all age groups together ?
Is it a behaviour issue ?
Yes, due to the nature of children picking on, and negatively influencing
the younger students.
Ahah !

Someone is honest enought to mention this ! I was kinda guessing it might be an
issue.

It's entirely unreasonable to expect the driver to keep unruly kids under
control.

If kids misbehave, surely the ultimate answer is to bar them from free school
transport ? Then the parents will have to 'pick up the tab' for their poor
'bringing up' of their miserable brats !

When I used to travel by bus there was a 'conductor'. He or she was quite able
to keep the brats in order !

I reckon a double decker bus with a conductor would fix many of the problems
mentioned.


Graham
Jeff Hacker
2005-09-20 02:41:19 UTC
Permalink
American
Continental - several trips to bankruptcy court
United - currently in bankruptcy
Delta - filed Ch. 11 today
Northwest - filed Ch. 11 today
US Airways - wasn't a major pre-deregulation, then a regional known as
Allegheny; several trips to Ch. 11
National - gobbled up by Pan Am in 1979
Braniff (original) - shut down 1982
Western - gobbled up by Delta in 1987
Eastern - shut down 1991
Pan Am (original) - shut down 1991
TWA - several trips to Ch. 11, remains gobbled up by AA in 2001
What about Republic? Or weren't they considered a major carrier before
the merger with NW?
Well I figured someone was going to ask about Republic. I'm surprised
it didn't happen sooner.
North Central
Merged with Southern to form Republic
Southern
Merged with North Central to form Republic
Piedmont
Acquired by US Air approximately 1988
PSA
Acquired by US Air approximately 1988
Air California
Name Change to Air Cal; acquired by American approximately 1989
Empire
Acquired by Piedmont mid 1980's
Mohawk
Acquired by Allegheny mid 1970's
Allegheny
Name change to US Air appromately mid 1970's
Northeast
Acquired by Delta in 1972
Southeast
bankrupt 2005.
Lake Central
Acquired by Allegheny approximately 1967
Capital
Acquired by United 1960
Capitol
bankrupt late 1990's.
World
still flying as charter carrier based in Atlanta
Pacific
merged with West Coast and Bonanza approximately 1969 to form Air West,
then renamed Hughes Airwest - ultimately acquired by Republic
Pacific Northern
merged into Western, approximately 1972
West Coast
Merged wtih Bonanza and Pacific to form AirWest
Bonanza
Merged with Pacific and West Cost to form Air West
AirWest
acquired by Howard Hughes and renamed Hughes Airwest approximately 1972,
acquired by Republic approximately 1980.
Hughes Airwest
acquired by Republic, approximately 1980
Air Florida
Bankrupt approximately 1992
People Express
Bankrupt, acquired by Continental approximately 1992
Frontier
Bankrupt approximately 1988. Some assets acquired by Continental. New
airline of same name reborn approximately 1995
New York Air
Merged into Continental approximately 1988
Provincetown Boston
Acquired by continental
Presidential
bankrupt and no longer operating
Air Atlanta
bankrupt and no longer operating (not the same company as Air Atlanta
Icelandic)
Ransome
later Trans World Express, Pan Am Express. Died when Pan Am did
Trans International
became Transamerica through name change
Transamerica
ceased service approximately 1992
Arrow Air
Still operating (cargo carrier based in MIA)
Air South
bankrupt approximately 1985
Wien Air Alaska
bankrupt approximately 1990
Reeve Aleutian
bankrupt approximately 2004
Aloha
Still operating (although in Chapter 11 bankruptcy)
Hawaiian
Still operating
Hawaiian Express
Bankrupt
ONA
name change to National Airlines, then bankrupt early 1990's
Metro Air
Acquired by American Eagle
Tower Air
bankrupt approxmately 2001
MGM Grand
Name change to Champion Air - still operating as a charter carrier
Regent Air
No longer operating
UltrAir
bankrupt
Robertson
Not sure
Robinson
Mid-Continent
Merged into Braniff, 1952
American Overseas
sold to Pan Am, 1950
Varney Air Lines
Became part of United, approximately 1933
Varney Speed Lanes/Lines
Became Continental
National Air Transport
Became National Airlines, acquired by Pan Am 1978
Boeing Air Transport
Became United Airlines
Western Air Express
Became Western Airlines, acquired by Delta 1987
Transcontinental Air Transport
Became Transcontinental & Western Air, then TWA. Acquired by American,
2001
Huff Daland Dusters
Became Delta???
Pitcairn Aviation
Became Eastern Air Lines, Inc.
Ben Franklin Air
No idea
Abe Lincoln Air
No idea
Civil War Airways
No idea
George Washington Speed Lines
Chopped down by a cherry tree
John Hancock Air Transport
name mispelled
Ice Age Air Lines
OD'd on frozen margaritas
XXX Airlines
Now ZZZ
YYY Airlines
ZZZ Airlines ???"
Hope I've saved at least some people some work.
Although I'm sure someone will bitch that I've missed some!
You forgot Braniff, Pan Am, and Panagra
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 03:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Hacker
You forgot Braniff, Pan Am, and Panagra
I think that's where they started !

Panagra ?

Graham
John Mazor
2005-09-20 02:43:33 UTC
Permalink
The "deficit reduction" rules go back 30 years, so they must have been
newly
applied to your company because their funding had fallen to 80% in a
given
plan year.
What I was told was that there was an increase in the obligations in
reaction to
the Enron scandal.
Were the "junior" layoffs to prevent them from vesting? You would think
that they'd target the senior workers, who presumably are amassing
pension
obligations faster (bigger salaries) than junior counterparts. And
sooner
or later, they're going to have to take on more new hires!
Yes, it was to keep them from vesting. There was the additional plus in
that
whatever pension funds had been ammassed for these people were then freed
up and
could be applied to the obligations for others.
As for other considerations, the company was (and still is) fighting for
its
life. The first layoff was almost exclusively people close to their 2nd or
5th
service aniversary. That's illegal, and the company is facing a
class-action
suit, but it's better than bankruptcy. That was November of 2001. Later
layoffs
were much more general -- they got rid of people who were close to
vesting, but
they also got rid of many others across the entire range of experience.
They also targeted people who were close to retirement or who could
retire, but
they didn't lay them off (however, I knew one case in which they tried to
do so
and the man insisted that he be allowed to retire). Perceived performance
was
also a factor in here (as it should be). Those very close to retirement
who had
decent work records were often given extra service years to allow them to
retire. The company had a pension plan in which those who retired at 60
got more
perks than those who retired at 55, and those retiring at 65 more than
those
retiring at 60, so they targeted people who were 59 or 64.
In December of 2001, they redid the pension plan such that the pension
funds are
directly tied to performance of investments and employees get the fund in
cash
when they leave. The earlier plan gave payments for life which were based
on the
last 5 years of salary. Existing employees could choose which plan to
take. New
ones have no choice, but the company has been laying off ever since, so
that's a
moot point. Since the cash balance plan removes the obligation to make
payments
after retirement, it reduced the company's obligations to set money aside.
In
2003, they removed the extra perks that people used to get when they
stayed
until 60 or 65 (medical benefits). That made it less important to convince
people to retire.
All told, they had over 8,000 employees in 2001. They have a little over
2,000
now. The pension obligations are only one factor in the mess. Still, the
vesting
situation was systematic. As far as I know, nobody made their 2nd or 5th
service
anniversary since November of 2001.
Good grief.
DevilsPGD
2005-09-20 02:50:31 UTC
Permalink
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Sure, but that would be extremely inefficient.

Today some students are picked up before 7am for a 7:30am start time.
The next batch of pickups start around 7:30am for a 8am start time.

Others don't get picked up until 8:30 for a 9am start.

Given the fact that the buses are generally completely full by the time
they get to the schools anyway, if we did as you suggest then the
pickups for all grades would need to start at 7am, but none of the
schools could start until 9am until all of the buses have done three
pickups each.

Having buses handle pickups which all go to a single dropoff each is the
best layout to reduce the amount of time each student wastes in
transportation going to/from the school each day.

The only way to avoid separating students by age would be to reorganize
schools to run a wider range of grades in a single school rather then
the current system

Our current system (Here, anyway) is to have a huge number of elementary
(1-6) schools medium number of junior high schools (7-9) and a small
number of (10-12).

The more students you have taking the same curriculum simultaneously,
the better equipped you can be by specializing your budget.

I went to a highschool with well over a thousand students, electronics
could barely fill 5-6 (of a possible 8) classes in the single
electronics lab. (15-20 students) -- Consider what would happen if,
instead of consolidating, you had all grades in one school: How would
you justify the cost of a full time teacher to teach a specialty like
electronics with only 10-20 students interested in taking the class?
--
Nobody ever lost money underestimating the human intelligence.
-- P.T.Barnum
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
So now one of the parents doesn't get to work until an hour later, which means
they don't get *out* of work for another hour, and it's *still* dark when they
get home. Only now they're out of synch with their spouse and their employer
isn't real happy either.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:04:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
So now one of the parents doesn't get to work until an hour later, which means
they don't get *out* of work for another hour, and it's *still* dark when they
get home. Only now they're out of synch with their spouse and their employer
isn't real happy either.
That could happen any old way. You make the foolish assumption that everyone has
to work inflexible hours.

Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:03:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
That could happen any old way. You make the foolish assumption that everyone has
to work inflexible hours.
Have you ever actually *worked* for a living?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:34:15 UTC
Permalink
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching.
Then you haven't been reading. It's to allow the school buses to make several
trips. They all work hard at getting the high school kids to school on time. The
next trip gets the middle school kids in. The third run picks up the elementary
school kids. Or maybe the other way 'round.

With that setup, it makes more sense to have the middle school start half an
hour after the high school.

If you wanted to start the schools all at the same time, you could have the high
school and middle school kids wait around at school until the elementary kids
got there. Of course, that would play Hob with the afternoon bus schedule.
Alternately, you could triple the number of buses and drivers. My taxes are high
enough now, thank you very much, and I have a hard enough time driving anywhere
when the buses are on the roads without there being three times as many.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Patterson
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching.
Then you haven't been reading. It's to allow the school buses to make several
trips. They all work hard at getting the high school kids to school on time. The
next trip gets the middle school kids in. The third run picks up the elementary
school kids. Or maybe the other way 'round.
With that setup, it makes more sense to have the middle school start half an
hour after the high school.
So, what you're saying is that school hours are influenced by the limited
availablity of transport ?
Post by George Patterson
If you wanted to start the schools all at the same time, you could have the high
school and middle school kids wait around at school until the elementary kids
got there. Of course, that would play Hob with the afternoon bus schedule.
Alternately, you could triple the number of buses and drivers. My taxes are high
enough now, thank you very much, and I have a hard enough time driving anywhere
when the buses are on the roads without there being three times as many.
You're saying that school buses *get in your way* ? Tssk !

I fail to understand why you don't use bigger buses ! You need fewer drivers hence
less wages cost for starters !

Consider the Boeing 747 for a comparison example !


Graham
George Patterson
2005-09-20 04:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pooh Bear
So, what you're saying is that school hours are influenced by the limited
availablity of transport ?
Of course they are.
Post by Pooh Bear
I fail to understand why you don't use bigger buses !
Our existing buses are already bigger than anything you have in that rinky-dink
postage stamp you call a country.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Hatunen
2005-09-20 04:53:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:26:41 +0100, Pooh Bear
Elementary school in this town begins before 8AM, but the kids are
home by 2:30. There is plenty of room in that schedule for the entire
operation to be done during daylight, even on the shortest day of the
year.
And if that town were in my location, and were on DST all year, classes
would start before 8:00 which would be before 7:00 by "sun time". It
would DEFINITELY be dark while the kids were waiting on the street for
the school bus.
Here is a radical thought: start school a little later.
RJ
This seems to be a common theme.
I'm puzzled why schools in the USA have different hours depending on the age
group they're teaching. In winter, the staggered hours will simply ensure the
almost impossibility of both arriving and leaving in daylight.
It's at least partly because most school systems provide school
buses to transport the children, and staggered schedules for the
three levels of schooling means (A) only one set of buses need be
purchased and (B) the drivers can be fully utilized without
hiring a different set of drivers for each level.


************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
George Patterson
2005-09-20 03:37:32 UTC
Permalink
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
I gather you live in Britain. Most of the U.S. doesn't have "normal" scheduled
bus service or rail. Your scheme works great in a few of our larger metropolitan
areas but nowhere else.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
Hatunen
2005-09-20 04:57:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 01:47:51 +0100, Pooh Bear
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Duh. They do. But since each age range fills the buses they have
to be used over again for each level. Either that, or they would
have to buy threee times as many buses and hire three times as
many drivers and assistants.
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
We have elementary schools for those in grades K=5, middle
schools for grades 6-8 and high schools for graees 9-12 ( it
varies from urisdciton to jurisdiction, though, with some places
having junior high schools, grades 7-9, and, oh never mind.

************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:00:44 UTC
Permalink
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
In significantly rural areas the busses often pick up everyone at once.
In more concentrated areas it is thought that it is better to limit
the contact that kids have with other ages.
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
So each bus can do an elementary, middle, and high school run.
Yes, I gathered that.
Why can't all age ranges use the same bus ?
Can't the bus visit all the schools ? There seems to be a fixed mindset in
action here assuming that kids have to be segregated by age.
Graham
In significantly rural areas the busses often pick up everyone at once.
In more concentrated areas it is thought that it is better to limit
the contact that kids have with other ages.
And the reason for that is ????? ( expecting a dysfunctional answer - that needs
to be addressed at source by measures like teaching - and valueing - appropriate
parenting skills .....)

Graham
Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
Graham
What's a normally scheduled bus service?
Pooh Bear
2005-09-20 04:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank F. Matthews
Each school is a separate building at different locations around the
district.
So ? How does that pose a problem.
Transportation is a serious piece of the budget so they do
make efforts to maximize the results.
It might be maximised better it seems !
In my school days there were many pupils from my home town who travelled
to several 'high schools' in another town.
We simply had 'bus passes' to travel on the normal scheduled bus service.
A few students even travelled by rail.
Didn't need special school buses at all.
Worked fine.
Graham
What's a normally scheduled bus service?
One that runs to a published timetable !

I'm going to guess that maybe such a thing doesn't exist where you live any
more ?

Time to ask *big* questions about where 'society' is going !

Graham

Frank F. Matthews
2005-09-20 04:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Working parents might have problem arranging child care in the AM.
And there are a hell of a lot of working parents in Niskayuna. It's the
ultimate two-career family town.
What a shame.
RJ
Makes for a great income though !
Graham
Actually not. The two incomes usually have about the purchasing power
of a single income from the 50s.
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...